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Talk:European theatre of World War II

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Adolf Hitler's and Benito Mussolini's "KIA" staus

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Should Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini be considered KIA? Most definitions consider KIA as "A casualty classification generally used to describe any person killed by means of the action of hostile forces." (from the Wikipedia article on it). Hitler shot himself in his bunker way before the soviet troops reached him, and he was involved in the fighting. Mussolini did get killed, but he was lynched/executed after a trail made by a mostly legal government. On top of this the page for WW2 does not mark them as KIA. This is very likely to cause some people who dont properly read articles to think that both of them died in battle rather then the ways they actually did. It really should be better addressed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.155.67.63 (talk) 13:38, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Entry of the USA

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The article so far has no mention of why and when the USA entered the European Theatre of the war. That seems to me to be an important topic. 96.63.53.152 (talk) 14:26, 16 May 2020 (UTC) Todd Pennington[reply]

I think belligerents should have criteria.

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I think we should make criteria to make belligerents clearly. It is too difficult and vague, because it contains too much information in one template. We can just add "co-belligerents" as Allies of WW2, (we can change that name) or we can make this template as simplest as Pacific War template, which put participants articles independently. We don't have to add all belligerents. I also do not prefer describing some specific belligerents such as Soviet Union in Invasion of Poland whose statue as Axis was controversial at 1939 to 1941, or Finland which describes as co-belligerent which is contradict to other articles. (see Operation Barbarossa, Siege of Leningrad, Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive which is "NOT" described Finland as co-belligerent). -- Wendylove (talk) 05:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Combatants

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I think we can make combatants as simple as Pacific War did. Here is my suggestion.

  1. Put major countries on infobox
  2. Make paragraphs titled "Combatants", and describing all the countries and party (such as resistance) on there.

Which countries to put as major countries should need consensus, but I think that the infobox needs some clean-up. Wendylove (talk) 18:20, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resistance movements would add 1,000% more clutter than the inclusion of state-combatants (including clients/puppet-states), especially since many of them were not really "fighting" resistance movements or united-national-movements (but spread into many groups), it would add a lot of arguing and ultra-fine precision which would never be finished. Limit it to states and governments.
Also, I think trimming to these infoboxes should be done carefully in contrast to the new trend on Wikipedia to remove actual combatants from campaigns etc which is occurring because users "dont like them". I.e. "the other side didnt recognize that government, so the actually participating forces of that state should be removed from the listing" or "this country is smaller than that one, lets delete their participation". --Havsjö (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the inclusion of puppet states

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Havsjö I have re-added Vichy France due to the heavy action against the allies such as in Syria in 1941. However the other combatants should not be added without adding the Allied equivalents, which in turn would make the infobox far too crammed. Not every combatant is listed on the Allied side for a reason. Regardless Morocco (a French puppet state de facto colony) raised 2 full divisions other troops under French control with the Sultans blessing and these troops saw heavy action on the Western Front in 1944-45 not even inclunding the forces in the French campaign in 1940, and countries like Syria and Lebanon (no longer mandates at the time of declaration), Iran, Iraq, Oman, Kuwait, Transjordan etc had various degrees of independent status and all formally declared war on the Axis, none of them are listed for obvious reasons, there cannot be double standards regarding these things, the most significant and involved is ok but not every collaborationist regime that existed as a combatant on paper or signed the anti-Comintern pact. Turkey was a significant power but is not listed on the Allied side for a reason. The process of recruiting troops into foreign volunteer units is a complicated one, but wouldn't change this principle either.

And this statement "you should read up on the relations between the listed countries to the Axis if you equate them to as colonies of colonial empires." they were invaded and had puppet states set up so their status was little different, Croatia was a more unique case since Yugoslavia was a multi-country state that it severed from and it behaved more like an actual individual participant than a more convenient way to administer occupation as was the case with the others (hence I didn't remove it), but in the case of war participation I assure you there are plenty of states not listed on the Allied side that had a more notable war time participation than the ones I removed. Will Tyson for real (talk) 09:33, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Will Tyson for real: Morocco was a officially a protectorate in the French colonial Empire, not a puppet (i.e. formally independent). The listed France and especially "Free France" includes such colonial forces as they were part of the French armies. Oman, Kuwait, Jordan were also protectorates and would serve in the wider British forces but did anyway not participate in the European Theatre. Neither did actually independent Turkey, Iran, or Iraq after their declaration of war. The Serbian and Greek states under Axis occupation authority, did however field thousands of troops in the European Theatre, fighting against countries listed on the Allied side of the infobox. Why not include these very real forces participating in the war the article is about. Denmark I can agree on, but Serbia, Greece, Albania (who was a formally a co-belligerent of Italy, whom it was in a personal union with, and Albanian Army troops fought against Greek and Yugoslav armies and later guerrillas (also listed on the Allied side)) should be included as they participated on the Axis side in this conflict. --Havsjö (talk) 10:04, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Havsjö: it is debatable how different protectorate and puppet state are to begin with, they have almost the same meaning, and in this case Albania, Denmark, Norway and Greece did not have any independence in any real sense and were under direct military occupation, and the official pre-war governments in exile for several of them. And groups like the Chetniks were on both sides of the war for example. There are still the other states I mention as well not being included. Perhaps we could bring more users into the discussion. Will Tyson for real (talk) 10:15, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Btw here is what the article on Greek collaboration has to say [1] Although their administrations did not directly assist the occupation forces, they collaborated with the German forces, creating armed "anti-communist" and "anti-gangster" paramilitary organisations such as the Security Battalions and others. Greek National-Socialist parties, like the Greek National Socialist Party of Georgios Merkouris, the ESPO organization or openly anti-semitic organisations, like the National Union of Greece, helped German authorities fight the Resistance, and identify and deport Greek Jews.[31] It was also the Organization BUND, with her leader Aginor Giannopoulos, who trained a battalion of Greek Volunteers, who fought with German Uniforms in SS and in Brandenburgers. the situations in the other countries was similar and I don't find this sufficient enough to include them as combatants for the infobox. Firstly these were paramilitary forces for use against partisans within the country in the case of the units raised by the de jure state, and when it comes to the SS and Brandenburgers fielding foreign volunteers they're allegiance is directly to Germany. Will Tyson for real (talk) 10:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Former Axis powers

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Some states are listed in the infobox as former Axis powers. So why is the Soviet Union’s role in 1939–1941 ignored there: when it coordinated the invasion of Poland with Germany, expanded its empire with agreement of Germany under the secret agreement in the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and conducted talks in an attempt to formally join the Axis?  —Michael Z. 21:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This question was repeatedly discussed in details one the World war II talk age. Please, familiarize yourself with it, and if you have fresh arguments, present them here. Paul Siebert (talk) 22:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are 60 pages of archives over there, and I couldn’t find any discussion about the infobox of this article. So the freshest argument here is this: the Soviet Union should be treated in the infobox the same way as other states that sided with Axis powers before they joined the Western Allies.  —Michael Z. 01:38, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All other states listed in this page signed a full scale military agreement with Nazi Germany and were officially at war with at least one Ally. Please, explain which military agreement (that stipulated some obligations of a military support in a case when Germany attacks some country or is attacked by some state) was signed by the USSR, and which Ally declared a war on the USSR (or which Ally the USSR declared a war on). Paul Siebert (talk) 03:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
USSR signed the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact including its secret protocol, held a joint victory parade after they invaded Poland, signed the German–Soviet Credit Agreement (1939), German–Soviet Commercial Agreement (1940), German–Soviet Border and Commercial Agreement which included obligations to suppress Polish resistance in each others’ conquests, held a series of Gestapo–NKVD conferences, and considered a more formal alliance. It was on the Nazi, not Allied side until it was invaded in 1941. —Michael Z. 05:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I’ve heard that if two states declared was on the same opponent, they should be considered de facto allies.[2]  —Michael Z. 05:54, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am repeating my question: what opponent both Nazi Germany and USSR declared a war on?
With regard to the rest, all these arguments had already been discussed (and addressed) during numerous discussions on the WWII talk page. You added nothing new. A couple of days ago, in a response to my polite request to provide sources supporting your claim, you dropped a link to a very long and generally irrelevant google search results. And you did that in a rude form. In connection to that, by redirecting you to the relatively well organized (and quite searchable) WWII talk page archive, I've addressed your question more adequately that you addressed mine.
I wish you good luck with the WWII talk page archive browsing. Paul Siebert (talk) 16:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Already answered: both invaded Poland.  —Michael Z. 16:59, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't: had the USSR declared a war on Poland, and had Poland declared a war on the USSR? Please, provide the exact date of this declaration, and explain when this war officially ended. Paul Siebert (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your overly specific question is irrelevant. Your demands are rude. Nazis and Soviets coordinated their invasion of Poland with the objective of destroying the state and enlarging their respective empires. USSR supported buildup of the Nazi war machine with trade agreements. They coordinated suppression of a Polish resistance. USSR tried to formally join the Axis. USSR was a participant in WWII from days after its start, and not on the Western Allies’ side.  —Michael Z. 17:26, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your soapboxing is irrelevant. This article is a daughter of the WWII article, and they must be consistent per our policy. I am not going to answer the questions that have already been addressed on the WWII talk page. Please, real the archives, and don't waste our time by reiterating the questions that have already been answered during previous discussions. Paul Siebert (talk) 19:26, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which policy?  —Michael Z. 22:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And how would reflecting this reality be inconsistent? That article’s infobox doesn’t have the same information at all, only a list of the few topmost leaders.  —Michael Z. 22:30, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reflecting what? That the USSR was the axis member? Please, provide sources that confirm that the claim that the USSR was the Axis member is a majority view.
You also may provide an evidence that the USSR meets the same criteria that are applied to a real ex-Axis members. These criteria for the ex-Axis members listed in the infobox are: (i) signing of some treaty that stipulated mutual military assistance in the case if one party declares a war on a third party; (ii) declaration of war on the same opponent (one of the Allied power). So far, you provided no proof that the USSR met these criteria.
In addition, keep in mind that Poland was essentially defeated by 17th of September, and, during first two weeks of that period, the USSR continued to be a party of an open military conflict with another major Axis power, Japan. How do you reconcile this fact with your allegations?
Moreover, how do you explain the fact that Anti-Comintern pact, a predecessor of the Tripartite pact, was directed against the USSR specifically, and, despite a brief period of rapprochement between Nazi Germany and the USSR (which efficiently ended as a result of annexation of the Baltic states by the USSR, because Hitler interpreted it as a hostile action and ordered to start planning Barbarossa), other member of the Anti-Comintern pact remained hostile towards the USSR.
You may also be interested to read Gorodetsky (The Origins of the Cold War: Stalin, Churchill and the Formation of the Grand Alliance. The Russian Review , Apr., 1988, Vol. 47, No. 2 (Apr., 1988), pp. 145-170), who noted that during the 1939-41, when Britain was worried about a possibility of a Nazi-Soviet alliance, "Russians, obsessed by the idea of a German-British reconciliation, persisted in seeking balanced relations with both Britain and Germany throughout 1939-41".
I expect to get serious arguments from you, and I expect to get a detailed and serious answer to each argument presented above. If you respond in your usual manner (like "Your overly specific question is irrelevant. Your demands are rude."), that would mean you failed to defend your POV, and I'll stop this conversation as non-productive. Paul Siebert (talk) 23:35, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reflecting the truth. That the USSR was not an Ally for the first 21 months of WWII. The current table is misleading, implying that it was.  —Michael Z. 13:27, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In connection to that, I am wondering why Denmark is listed in this section? That directly contradicts to what The Axis article says. I am going to remove it to bring these two articles in agreement with each other, if strong evidence of the Denmark's membership in the Axis will not be provided in close future. --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From 1941

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With the above arguments in mind, I propose that the infobox legends like “(from 1941)” that are currently hidden in pop-up notes be made visible for all the states, as they already are in the “former Axis powers” section. The few longer explanatory notes on the Axis side can remain hidden. —Michael Z. 13:45, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hermann Göring has an RfC

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Hermann Göring has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 01:21, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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